"WTF? I GOT NUKED?#@!@!@"
-SlingsnArrows
|
| #1 Smoked Pork[1004] | | | Still the undisputed master of BW and BRs alike. | | #2 Conscience[1005] | | *Cough* 9 rating for average report with no screenshots...
*Ahem* *Cough* *Bull$h1T* *Cough*
;] | | #3 [FLS]prozerran[1006] | | Waalaa!
Detailed, informative, pictorial in words.
Always the untouchable master of BR. =) | | #4 Mark4[1008] | | | If I was rating it I would have given it maybe a seven or eight. Probably seven. But as a point of honor I don't rate my own reports. | | #5 [FLS]prozerran[1009] | | heh heh
Don't mine deserved a 10?
=) I don't vote for myself, else I'll have a 9.5 =) | | #6 Johnny_Vegas[1010] | | Nice report dude. This emphasises my point that Terran's doom fleet is a piece of crap compared to protoss's doom fleet.
Psi-Storm is a 2 bit whore!! Terran must use air, to kill Protoss fleets, while Protoss can use minimal air and a few templar.
Sure that part of the game is imbalanced. But I think that terran's have the advantage with early wraiths to stop expansions too. | | #7 PR()T()$$[1011] | | | Do you ever lose with toss? Just wondering:) | | #8 Mark4[1012] | | | Like I said earlier Johnny, toss owns the air and terran owns the ground. I think I could have countered early wraiths with early corsair, but I don't like to do that because of the vulnerability to drops. Oh, and protoss, I lose all the time. I'm not all that good. | | #9 Mark4[1013] | | | BTW protoss, I don't return your messages on b.net unless I'm in the same room as you cuz I'll be damned if I'm typing in all that crap you call a name =]. | | #10 Johnny_Vegas[1015] | | | Terran may own protoss ground, but only if the terran can get into position to do so. Sure, if you don't recon and I park my 6 tanks at your front door then you in deep $HIT. But it's not like a terran can simply attack-move into a protoss base with unsieged tanks. Reallistically we have to wait for Sci vessels to stand a chance. Then the toss usually survives long enough for carriers. Protoss can just grab a bunch of goons, attack move them into a terran base with a couple templar trailing to wipe out the infantry. I play protoss hardly ever and I can still beat more skilled terran opponents, with a few simple tactics. | | #11 [FLS]prozerran[1016] | | I bet Johnny is still full-heartedly hate toss with D-web. o_O
Especially on island when the tank push is set up. | | #12 [FLS]prozerran[1017] | | Wohoo!! I'm the top viewer of www.BR.com
yeah! HardCore!!! =) HaEHeHae | | #13 [FLS]prozerran[1018] | | Wohoo!! I'm the top viewer of www.BR.com
yeah! HardCore!!! =) HaEHeHae | | #14 Johnny_Vegas[1019] | | | Sorry FLS, but I am the top viewer. You have to count fink.ahnet.nt and gza.ahnet.net and add them together I use 2 IPs. And that's not counting my Earthlink IP I use from home!! And yes I HATE Dweb. I just love it when I have a bunker/turret/tanks combo all setup to kill some zerg, and then his fag partner comes in and DWEBS everything!! NO!!!!!!!! | | #15 [FLS]prozerran[1020] | | God damn... I guess I only appear to be the top viewer... that made me more comfortable. hehe.
D-web+goons+temp=gay | | #16 BJack[1023] | | How do you guys know the top viewer and all the stuff?
| | #17 Johnny_Vegas[1026] | | | The staff gets to look at the stats page. | | #18 !tha likwid donqui![1027] | | man, how do you ever lose?
you're SWEET!
also, how do you vote on reports' ratings? | | #19 Heartcutter[1028] | | It was a well fought game. I must congratulate Mark4. There are some inherent disadvantages to Terran on islands, but the key one is definately mobility (that, and the fact that even the really slow and stinky terran shuttles take GAS). I can't fix that, and neither can anyone else (I'd have the advantage if BC's moved faster than Carriers). It's also a compensation game at best for terran. I fought the best fight an island terran could, but lacked the endgame abilities to close the deal. Protoss also have the expansion capability and control (through cannons, and their ability to warp in multiples with just one probe) that terran just can't hope to compete with.
I'm sold that terran is toast on Dire.
...but Terran ground is king. | | #20 Dev[1029] | | Question: Why not tech to lockdown to help defend your islands? I think it *might* have helped. Just a thought.
Also, maybe a few range-upgraded golies?
Maybe I'm way out in left field here, but...
| | #21 Johnny_Vegas[1030] | | Range-upgraded goliaths are a waste of money. You can't attack islands with them, and they are of minimal effectiveness vs carrier fleets.
Sneaking a ghost to nuke Mark4's main would have been difficult as well, since Mark had so many observers. Lockdown is also of minimal use to a large fleet. | | #22 Starkweather[1031] | | | Observers spreading like doom? Come on, they're just observers :) | | #23 Snowreaver[1033] | | Actually, I recall reading a report by someone stating that he'd left Ghosts in his own expansions, about 3-6 on each, with lockdown in case of Carrier assaults. Using them defensively like that might be useful... I mean, you can't lock down 6 at a time the way you can Storm, but knocking out even 1 or 2 carriers helps a bit.. if yer micro is real good you can push the carrier clump around with Valks and lockdown more... eh, theory and hearsay though, so don't think I know what I'm talking about. ;D
And hey, those Obs'll start ranting about the Shroom if you're not careful. | | #24 mark4[1035] | | | Hey, stark, guess what the most important part of the game is. Recon? Just maybe brother =]. | | #25 .Praetor[1038] | | | Ok, y'all can flame me all you want, because I'm about to speak heresey. Terran air is not inferior to toss air. I can hear the silence fall over the forum. Seriously though, terran air is only inferior to Toss air when the Toss air has templar support. Only two things make it seem like Toss air is better, and that is 1)Carriers move faster than BC, which is damned annoying, and 2)It's easier to construct a Toss fleet of doom. Corsair, Carrier, Aribiter for fun. But, like most Terran stuff, if you work a little harder (comsat helps) you can tailor your fleet of doom to take out their fleet of doom easy. | | #26 Mark4[1039] | | | I agree. I think terran air is better than toss air. And terran ground is better than toss ground. The trick is, toss air raped terran ground pretty good, and toss ground kills terran air. Add in psi storm and the toss can sometimes squeeze out a victory. Of course, when you add in mobility, toss has a little more of an edge. | | #27 [FLS]prozerran[1045] | | I'm not sure about toss vs terran air dude... All I know is that Carrier+sairs+>5 observers=dead terran air. In some degree dead terran ground as well, when the *cheap ass* D-web is casted, with DA (feedback) and temps dropped (for BC).
Right now most of my terran island game is to avoid these units, by attacking them first....
Terran island stinks against toss air especially at the end. Not to mention the annoying stasis field.... | | #28 Fweddo[1047] | | | I'm hearing some stuff dissing lockdown. LD rules. Read my earlier report to find out, but to make things short, I lockdowned my opponent's entire fleet (5 carriers, I think) and I SUCK, and I mean utterly suck, at micromanagement. A good micro'er could easily LD a fleet of carriers with 10 ghosts (or about 1 per carrier) using shift-cueing of lockdowns (select ghosts, LD a carrier, shift click a ghost, repeat), or really really fast clicking. | | #29 Bob the Newt[1050] | | | Yeah, once I locked down 12 carriers and arbiter and killed them all with 12 wraiths. Only works if you see the fleet coming though. | | #30 JSH[1051] | | What's this about goliaths are a waste of money? First of all, they don't cost very much, and produce quickly (same time and gas as a goon). Their ground-to-air power is fantastic for how much they cost. They're not terrible vs. carriers, unless you're talking about going up against 12. That's when you need stuff like lockdown. And their ground power is adequate, and can be supplemented with tanks. A mass goliath/tank drop by a Terran is nothing to sneeze at. The corsairs will sit around saying "you know, I wish we could attack ground so we could save our base." I'm often making tanks and goliaths out of 4+ factories and dropships out of starports. I defend islands with goliaths, not turrets. And most importantly, I (try to) stay aggressive. Toss may defend well, but there is always a way in, like sieging/nuking from across islands so you can drop your troops.
Well that got kinda long, but I guess the point was I Like Goliaths!! :) | | #31 Try to be nice[1060] | | Ugh!
Mark4, you may be a co-conspirator of this fine site, and you may be good, but I can't believe you talked down on Heartcutter like that.
He's a great player and contributor to this site, and you trashed him thus:
1. Newbie killer
2. Map hacker
3. Over-rated ladder score
You obviously have great disdain for him, and you got to crow about kicking his ass. But geez, it sure made you look worse than him in my mind.
Any chance you'll return to the fun spirit of competition instead of cutting people down?
- Some dweeb who has learned something from Heartcutter's reports. | | #32 Johnny_Vegas[1061] | | | I'm sure Mark4 didn't mean anything bad by it. Mark4 told me that Heartcutter was a really good player. And anyone that can come close to beating Mark4 on dire with terran has my respect. | | #33 JSH[1062] | | | Yeah, it sounded like Mark was just poking fun too. I think the little maphacker comment was funny because nowadays people are so quick to claim 'maphacker!' when in fact it's good recon or maybe even blind luck. Ah well. | | #34 Mark4[1063] | | | Hey check it out man: 1)When your net points per win are around ten, you look like a newbie killer. Some people will play anyone who walks into thier game, and that's thier choice. A good example of a player who does this that I also respect is dekerf. 2)There is no map hack. My even thinking this is a mark of great respect for heart's recon ability. 3)His ladder isn't overrated. I don't know where you got this. I consider heart a good player and a gentleman. If we were playing on land he would have probably won. | | #35 .Praetor[1076] | | | For Prozerran, what you have in your little scenario is maybe two dark archons, two or three templar, some carriers, and corsair with d-web. I think you may have missed my entire point about ground support. In just air vs. air units, a valkbattlecruiser fleet can kill a corsairCarrier fleet anyday. Heck, an all BC fleet can kill a corsairCarrier fleet anyday (equal money). If you want to add in 2 sci vessels (less price than 4 templar) and a comsat before the battle, there goes your psi-storm and sheilds. For the DA's same thing, and BC's often get their yamatoes off vs carriers, pretty much negating feedback. With the ground support you are talking about, the protoss fleet costs more. So, in summary, it's the composition of the fleet, or the skill in using spell-casters that wins for air. I would say the only possilbe argument that toss air is better is that it is faster (carriers faster than BC, scouts have upgrade, valks don't - too bad they took off afterburners, wraith and corsiar same speed). | | #36 [FLS]prozerran[1104] | | .Praetor, actually, a sair carrier fleet definitely beat a pure BC fleet. Heck two days ago my 9 sairs 1 Carrier facing 5 BC, well, I lost that battle because I was drastically out-resources in terms of units (mine was 1850/1150, his was 2000/1500), but I was able to reduce his fleet to 2 badly damaged BC. I should have been wasted in that match up if BC kill CorsairCarrier, instead of a close one like this. I'm so sure that CorsairCarrier fleet will definitely beat pure BC fleet in equal money, and in island toss generally have a better resource because of templar, zealot, dragoons, and observers. I'm not sure about ValkBC combo, since no one uses valks against toss nowadays anyways.
In head-to-head combat, the battle may go the way you had described, but such situation is not very common. Usually it's either side attacking enemy expansion, while the fleet comes to rescue. In terran case, there is nothing to land until cannons/templar (very very common toss island defense) are down. There is definitely no possible ghost landing before the toss fleet comes to rescue. That's the thing. In toss assault's case, D-web a few, drop your DA and temps, attack move the carriers, hold-position the sairs and all you need to do is the focus on your DA and temps. In this combo I don't even need the arbitor. Well the stasis field is inevitable.
Personally, I like halucinating my carriers first when divide my fleet into 2 parts from different direction attacking the same target. It's much more micro in the terrans' case to EMP the DA/temp without feedback, EMP the both halucination group, Control BC and Valk, blah blah blah , at the same time. Toss defense is attack-move, "T" and point, "F" and shift select. It's much easier. | | #37 .Praetor[1117] | | | [FLS]Prozerran, I am definitly sure you are wrong about a BC fleet losing to a sair, corsiar fleet. In the example you gave, I bet that either you had several upgrades, and he didnt, or his BC took the time to kill the interceptors. It is true that toss island defense is stronger, but you have not addressed the issue of clone-yamato preceeded by EMP. I still think that you have a larger number of spell-casters on the toss side in your main arguement, thus negating it becuase of resource advantage. As for your last point, that seems to be the big illusion, Toss units are easier to manage, but they are not inherantly better than Terran units. | | #38 [FLS]prozerran[1119] | | All I'm saying is that toss got easier and more effective way to defend against a terran surprise (well, not really surprise cuz BC are damn slow, and probably observer will tell toss that a fleet is coming before it dies.), compare to a surprise attack from a toss. As in your game, your BC are piss-slow, or else your expansion will not fall. Toss don't really need a lot of temps, or DA. Usually around 8-10 temps, 2 in each island, several shuttles, and around 2-3 DA is enough.
Imagine the situation. All of a sudden 12 carriers and 12 sairs are pounding at one of your expansion (well, of those 12 of course half of them are halucinated, and somewhat separated.) D-web are casted at the same time (which is very doable) and 2 DA and 4 temps are dropped at that island. Now, say you have 8 BC and 8 Valks, along with 4 SV and 8 ghosts with lockdown. I doubt that you can even drop your cargo for lockdown, so it's outta the question. You BC will arrive approxiamately when I cleared all defensive structure (or even the scv/cc, depends how far it is). here is what I'll do. When I see the terran fleet approaching (via an observer which will die very quickly when the fleet is on the way) I just need to get my hands my DA, feedback everything that I see, pop 2 temps back in shuttle, and move the other 2 at the corner opposite to your island. I mean, feedback is such a cheap ass way to damage/kill BC/SV. your valk will practically do nothing except taking down the shield. a couple of psi-storm will definitely be casted on, and my control is back on the DA again after I quickly attack move my sairs and focus-fire on carrier (which doesn't take much time really). I doubt the terran will have much chance on this. Turret/bunker cannot delay the carrier/D-web fast enough for the slowass BC/Valk.
To summarize, toss need to: attack-move carrier, D-web turret/bunker. drop 2 temps/2 DA, feedback everything you see (which is instant and can use shift-queue) psi-storm and attack-move sairs. Selective attack with carriers, psi-storm.
Terran need to: EMP everything, avoid feedback, Selective attack BC, Selective attack sair/Carrier (else they will get interceptors) dudge storm, D-matrix unit by unit. Well, besides the selective attack, every one of these are harder then the toss, but not as much effective too.
Speed, and ability to delay is one of the main thing about Toss vs terrans. When toss expansion is screwed, I still have temps that might delay the fleet. If a terran expansions is screwed, I can do nothing. | | #39 DisgruntledApe[1121] | | | Correction: there is a map hack. Of course it only is a terrain hack, but still... A map hack nonetheless. | | #40 .Praetor[1146] | | Well, Prozerran, let me review the situation. I'll talk just about the battle you have lined up there, since the rest we can argue about forever. Also assuming I dont go attack an expansion of yours. 12 carrier (66003000) and 12 sair (18001200)= (84004200) add in upgrades (not armourweaponsshield for both races) and spell casters and shuttles mentioned= (500500 for psi-storm and interceptors and d-web) (700400 for DA's and shuttle) (400600 4 temps and shuttle) + hallucinate and 2 more temps (250450) Add in at least 2 obs (50150). Doom fleet for 'Toss grand total of 10,3006,300.
Terran. 8bc (32002400) + 8 valk (20001000) = 52003400 plus spell-casters and upgrades (600600) for yamatolockdownemp, (200900) for 4 SV, (200600) for ghosts. (200200) for a generous 2 transports. Grand total of 6,4005,600.
Let me add 2 more BC and a valk, that's 10 BC and 9 valks. In a perfect battle, I still have 2,750 dollars. Lets assume 3 bunkers, one with ghosts (you dont think I'm going to put them all out in the open?) plus 2 more with marines that's 500. Ok, we'll assume I'm stupid and add 22 turrets (but more probably another expansion).
You d-web the entire setup. Oh crap. Down go my ghosts in the open. Let's say you get a SV for fun too. Now you start on the turrets. If we're on dire, I'm bringing my fleet back. Panicking, I EMP your fleet twice, eradicating shields (stupid, that's what valks are for). Let's be generous, you get another SV. I pull them back. You put your stuff down on the Island. Damn, my bunkers are d-webbed. AS THEY ARE MOVING, I clone my yamatoes, of which i get to do 5 (pairs) on carriers. Dang, my turrets are almost gone. Seeing your spell casters, I emp, of which I have 3 shots left. Say I get just your templar (I'm gonna go for templar first). Point #1, SV are fast, EMP has the range of feedback. My EMP hit your templar. (I don't waste them on DA's. We'll let you keep your feedbacks). I send in my valks. My valks are here for two reasons. 1)Kill corsair. Dang, those things are annoying. 2)Get rid of shields, if that works, heck, I'm in buisiness.
You are feeling confident, all those stupid turrets have been destroyed, you've got some ghosts, what has happened, you've lost shields. All the sudden, valks arrive. You laugh, Carriers eat valks. My valks unleash a massive load of missles. Ooch, 3 corsair or are close, several more heavily damaged. If you are smart you remove your corsair. I will then remove my valk, repeat as necessary. Now, your attention is gone, plus, bunkers are priority over ghosts. Pop out a ghost, lockdown, twice if im lucky. Repeat 4 times. If you are smart, you retreat, if you arent, you don't, you lose 5 carriers, and you retreat in a panic, possibly losing more corsair or carriers locked down that weren't yamatoed. If you retreat right away, I kill your carrier.
Summary, I still have my base, you have lost at the least 4 carrier, some corsair, and stranded spell casters (remember valks? They do a number on shuttles). I lost a bunch of turrets, a bunker or 2, maybe some valks, and 2 sci vessle 4 ghosts. If you stay to fight you get massacred. BC's don't have to be fast, especially on Dire. The terran defense goes by in stages.
Attacking. Take away my ghosts, add your templar, and cannons. I don't do nearly as well. I shield one sci vessle, emp the templar on island, then shield one BC to attack turrets, yamatoing cannons at will. You don't bring in corsair, why would you? Maybe to chase SV, but they are following my valks. You bring in DA's and hurt my BC, and get a storm (or 2!) off before I EMP and go shuttle chasing. (one or the other). Then you send in your Carriers. It is a close battle, with corsair now actually helping, and oh, did I get too close to those 2 cannons?
Defense is better either way. In good hands, this Terran fleet wins, if you have an arbiter, it is different. But, hey,it IS harder to manage a Terran fleet, if the micro isn't so much greater, since it is spread out right. The first scenario also says my fleet is far away, but even if I have a ton of exp on dire, I have my island, the close biggie, and the close smalls (smalls are better), my fleet is in the middle of those 4 islands, ready to respond everywhere.
You know, after reading this, I'm building more turrets on my islands, great delaying factor.
Personally, I think defense is easier both ways around. But Terran fleet alone beats toss fleet alone. Because Yamato, shield, and EMP. (Sheild counters stasis pretty well). Plus, if I knew that I was defending against only a Carrier, Corsair fleet, I'd have all wraithvalks. Or all BC. | | #41 Entaro Adun[1151] | | | WOW...that's a long comment. What are you, Praetor, a bank accountant? Or maybe that new Maths teacher. | | #42 Entaro Adun[1152] | | | Not to offend to you experts, but I would like to ask a question: Why did that Toss High Templar always say, "I $hit on Korhal"? And not to mention the vulture who said "FFFFu" followed by a Beep sound. | | #43 Mark4[1160] | | | To add a bit to the island debate, check out how I managed the battle. I did not directly confront his fleet until I had seriously depleted his resources. I hit an island and ran before he could counter. Then I hit the next one. When he attacked I countered with all my strength, and as has been mentioned, defense is easier. I used my superior range to kill one unit and then ran back to my defenses in a sequence of raids. | | #44 [FLS]prozerran[1183] | | Yeah that's my point!
Terran island defense blow goat compare to toss island defense! Thus Toss=more expansions! | | #45 WinnietheBIACH[40316] | | PPPa56-ResaleGainesvilleFlB1-4R7029.saturn.bbn.com | | Last comment!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thankyou thankyou.... I try | | #46 aiel_rock[41769] | | prxy6.nwbl.wi.voyager.net | | NNNOOO. ITS MY LAST COMMENT. MUAHHAAHAHA. Anyhoots, I have to go with the argument that toss fleet is more powerful then terran fleet. It is much easier to use hit and run tactics with carriers than with bc's. If terran goes wraith, sairs will rip them apart. Yeah, hit and run carriers =mal for terrans. Yeah..... | | #47 Little Tip...[46299] | | 127.np8.np.dialup.nauticom.net | Just a tip, If it's a Terran Vs Protoss battle.. Research EMP and use it liberally.. That could have helped you with those Templars... :-)
Latersz
MukoMole | | #48 LAST COMMENT[59101] | | ci991207-b.edgewd1.ky.home.com | EVER.
CrazyTheFirebat | | #49 fifty12[67937] | | we-24-130-102-231.we.mediaone.net | | 50 golden | | #50 +nightnight+[77713] | | 207-172-130-214.s214.tnt3.col.md.dialup.rcn.com | | owned by me! last comment whores! | #51  [81018] | | WCS1.NORFOLK.NIPR.MIL | | Damn I sucked back in the day. Heart was still a bad ass tho' | | #52 Baxter-O'Bixby[81624] | | info-190-40.Lib.Berkeley.EDU | Last.
Mwa.
Mwaha.
MWAHAHAHAHA!!!! | | #53 TheDroneMiester[84791] | | ci991207-b.edgewd1.ky.home.com | | Nuh-uh. last comment is mine. | | #54 adshtjhdsg[87261] | | spider-wb054.proxy.aol.com | | last =] | #55  [102315] | | dhcp024-166-066-234.neo.rr.com | | The old reports are the best. | | #56 Shadow D'Arc[108026] | | spider-wo054.proxy.aol.com | Got that right.
Peace,
Shadow D'Arc | | #57 Raider[113177] | | wkstn113-207.village-c.georgetown.edu | | last last last | | #58 MaelStrom[118115] | | ool-4352d857.dyn.optonline.net | last..
mwahahaha | | #59 wakiki[154361] | | cable-68-186-201-180.mtv.al.charter.com | | Last. |
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