| #1 DFA (spider-wo064.proxy.aol.com)[15086] |
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| I will take this spot only to stop the comment whores=] |
| #2 Sp|nE (dialup1835-pri.voicenet.com)[15087] |
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| This is funny. More br's of ppl i know in rl dieing =] |
| #3 DFA (spider-wo082.proxy.aol.com)[15089] |
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That was a good report. I do agree that the bottom spot being open to a siege could seem imbalanced but hey it's a battle and no battle is perfect. Being a smart player woul dgive you these advatages, even thou the tank has a few more, but that's also why you have storm. Might not be fair, But that's the map=]
i'm also glad you beat the dirty mcnasty terran trash!!
Protoss own your Azz!!
DFA |
| #4 Sp|nE (dialup1835-pri.voicenet.com)[15090] |
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| This is funny. More br's of ppl i know in rl dieing =] |
| #5 Fractal_Wave (proxy1.gvcl1.bc.wave.home.com)[15094] |
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~Very~ nice. I need to try that tanking idea...Will be a good one to add to my repitoire of Terran Weirdness, along with the Rax Float and Vulture Drop.
Regretablly, I've noticed the same thing that you did. It takes GODLY micro to stop a macro player. Which depresses me, 'cause I like micro & surgical strikes more. I think it would be possible for a really good Protoss to win a game through Micro, a la Zileas. But Terrans are too slow. Ah well.
All the best,
Fractal_Wave |
| #6 AQD3[15095] |
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| If I 3 gated instead of expanding, this strat would have killed me fractal. Micro has it's place... |
#7  (real.nauticom.net)[15096] |
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You know, I think this guy was busting on Shockwave and Mark4 a while back on the forums about some nonsense or another...
Sounded like a close game... nice report. |
| #8 Persian-POW (proxy1-external.rdc1.az.home.com)[15097] |
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I hate the low ground seige at 6!!!! You can't seem to ever do a direct assault on the area because they can just keep tanks above that spot on their plateau. I think tanks on their high ground can even shoot accross that little gully, which makes using goons from high ground more difficult.
Another place where low ground can hit mineral area is at 9:00. There's a little piece of land sticking out south of 9:00 that 1-2 tanks can fit on. This is really annoying especially if almost all of your forces are in the middle of the map.
Well, I always loose to terran so everything I said is probably wrong. |
| #9 soulsplitter' (spider-tm033.proxy.aol.com)[15099] |
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| weeeeee. Pretty gay i nkow. How csn you lose to terran. Dt rush, ift hey have detection, exp quick, since you have them contained tell the they get vessles, then you should just be able to stop a quick tank push. doodad |
| #10 anal-banana (ns2.bridge.com)[15105] |
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| You are my hero ADQ3! |
| #11 (sanduser1125.bossig.com)[15115] |
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I agree with Fractal.. the death of pure micro is simply depressing, as i too will employ any means possible to use even the slighest shard of micro in my game. Regrettably this has rubbed off on clannies too, and my arch-nemesis is now a well-versed master of (OMG) Dragoon dancing. I, personally, had doubted that such a skill was even possible =[
Long live the micro freaks! May they prosper and gain a micro-hehehe patch from Blizz! |
| #12 Seriva (sanduser1125.bossig.com)[15116] |
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| Weeeeee messed-up post! |
| #13 Johnny_Vegas (pool0409.cvx9-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net)[15120] |
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| Nice report. Macro is the difference between good players and great players. And AWESOME players can do both at the same time plus write battle reports on them. |
| #14 Persian-POW (proxy2-external.rdc1.az.home.com)[15121] |
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| I wonder if Johnny talks the same way to his boss? |
| #15 Bob the Newt (dt030n35.tampabay.rr.com)[15124] |
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hehehehe
*makes smooching sounds* |
| #16 Pitt (res6486.student.nd.edu)[15131] |
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| You guys are all annoying babies. Have your fricking goons take one for the fricking team and shoot the spotting ebay. Sure yer gonna lose 4 or 6 goons but yer not gonna lose your fricking nexus! DO YOU GET ME? |
| #17 T_Mac (ts3-19t-4.idirect.com)[15135] |
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I've encountered that a few times too, annoying eh? I think you did the smart thing, just make him spend lots of time killing a few measly buildings, and expand once or twice. Also, just to toot my own horn, i beat that newbie mcnasty guy too, terr vs terr. I've found that going wraiths has gotten me killed a few times (probably cuz i didnt use them well), so i went goliath/tanks, to his wraith/tanks. After i had 2 comsats, i kicked his ass all over the map. Newbiemcnasty needs to learn to upgrade, i had 3/3 vs 0/0.
Mwahahah, im god : |
| #18 T_Mac (ts3-19t-4.idirect.com)[15136] |
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| Err, what happened to my : |
| #19 T_Mac (ts3-19t-4.idirect.com)[15137] |
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| Wow, didnt show up again! lets try this one :) |
| #20 DFA (spider-wj072.proxy.aol.com)[15139] |
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A day in the life of T_Mac having a hard time trying to do something funny..
=]
Muhaha
DFA |
| #21 Persian-POW (proxy1-external.rdc1.az.home.com)[15141] |
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| T_Mac is god. : |
| #22 AQD3[15142] |
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I thought about killing the engineering bay Pitt, but I have a few problems with that:
o I never had six dragoons to just let die at that point in the game.
o He could have just floated it back over his strong point and started repairing it with the SCV he had there. It would suck to sacrifice six dragoons to kill and engineering bay and have it repaired.
o Ten seconds after the engineering bay is dead his barracks or something else he wasn't using would be floating over. And I'd have traded 750/300 to his 125. That's almost the cost of my just expanding twice and letting my nexus die. |
| #23 Tariq (198.168.49.12)[15146] |
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man how can you ppl cry about 6 spot on temple
thats like a terran praising the 12 spot 8(
Apart from that nice report good use of recon with your DT, it seemed that saved your ass alot(one of the keys to being a good player).
1
p.s. It seems you have the same problem with you BW cd as othre peeps where lost temple is the only map that shows up 8( try reinstalling it. |
| #24 shockwave (exchange1.sensable.com)[15154] |
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Tariq: Who the heck are you??? The 6 o'clock spot really sucks, the only worse one is the 12 o'clock. EVERYONE knows that Lost Temple starts are severely imbalanced, arguing against that is like saying that Zerg aren't imbalanced on Gauntlet.
About the tanks, would running a bunch of zealots in have taken that out? If there were mines, this might be disastrous, but I didn't see any mention of them. A bunch of zealots will plow through tanks & marine-filled bunkers. The only thing I'd worry about is if the low-ground tanks were supported by high-ground tanks at his main.
BTW: Yes I agree that LT is overplayed. Maybe we should encourage people to play maps like Rivalry or Fading Realm? |
| #25 -CD-Fool (ss04.co.us.ibm.com)[15155] |
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| All the spots on LT have that weakness that lets you pound part or all of your oppenents mineral line/gas with tanks, You can do it from the low spot at 9, from the ledge to hit the gas at 3:00, from the low spot at 12, though its harder cause you don't get the tanks backing you up or the ledge protection at 3:00 but you can do it, so they all have some form of weakness to tanks... |
| #26 VRAM1974 (depth.martinet.com)[15161] |
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| As usual a great report by AQD3. I hate playing with terran and doing nice little micro moves and then having my base run over by macro. I played a guy in nohunters a while back and I reaver dropped his base to hell with shuttle dancing, but then he got sick of it and walked 12 dragoons in my front door which was protected by only about 4 zealots and a shield battery. Micro + Macro is what a player great, I agree. |
| #27 shockwave (exchange1.sensable.com)[15164] |
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Hey CD-Fool-,
Sure, all the spots are vulnerable to tanks, but this doesn't mean that they're equally vulnerable. I wouldn't say they're equal but some spots are "harder". Being able to tank the 3 o'clock gas is really no big deal compared to tanking the guy's TOWN HALL at the 6 o'clock low ground. You can also tank the 9 o'clock from the bottom-side depression, but you can only get 2 tanks there and I'm not even clear you can hit the town hall. For naturals, the 6 and 12 o'clock are incredibly more vulnerable than the 12 and 9 o'clock. Etc. Each start has different disadvantages, but I think most people will agree that 12 is the absolute WORST by a long shot and 9 o'clock is the best by far. If you're serious about winning ladder games, you might as well turbo concede if you get the 12 or 6.
|
| #28 Hannibal (101user249.ctinets.com)[15165] |
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I like his last comment. "Temple is too big!!!" He should start learning how to play as terran on Dark Continent or at least on Medusa. hen he would know terran on Temple is relatively easy.
I disagree with his playing style. Surgical strikes don't win games. Unless you strick to distract while you mass expand. Terran should still fight to minimise toss's expansion attempts or expand and then do a hugh push to wipe out the main. His neither here nor there approach cannot work vs a good toss. The best terran I have played always expand systematicly and only attack when he is sure. Simply because a terran attack does invole tons of micro. Don't start a fight if you can't be sure you can win. That's wht I don't even do turbo newbie much on Temple. It is not crippling enough to worth the micro and dropships in many cases. It only delay him a bit while he may has tons of ther expansions else where.
Regarding imbalance on Temple.
You can't have a perfectly balance map unless the map is totally symetrical. I suppose Rivalry might be close. The fact that Temple is imbalance is because it is way over played. Why the hell do people have to keep playing the same map. I agree that Temple is a good map that allows for early game threats, challenging mid-game and possible late game. Any map that can do the above is good. But there are tons of other maps that can do it. Go play Rivalry at least, for goodness sake. And people don't always play a map with a gimme. It is much more fun and challenging to play a map without a gimme, for all races. BTW, I think close encounter, a 6 player BW map is quite fun too even if it has a mineal gimme. |
| #29 JSH (nscs40p6.remote.umass.edu)[15166] |
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Ooh! Ooh! I know what map we can play!
Hunters!
Oh come on, it's fun. |
| #30 Tariq (198.168.49.12)[15179] |
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shockwave: "who the heck are you?"If the map is so imbalanced why do ppl try and pick another map.
Poor blizard they wasted all there time to make like 100 maps for ppl you only use like 3.
ô¿ô
1
btw: its just a temple rant nothing more nothing less. |
| #31 Mark4 (strangers.bragg.army.mil)[15185] |
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In answer to the question, "who the hell is Shockwave" I have a few words. He's the most respected tactician for starcraft in our community. He was the one who shared all the secret micro and macro tricks of the masters in the days when starcraft was still new. He maintains the highest quality forum still active in starcraft discussion today. And he even frequents the battle.net forums, establishing his reputation as the most highly knowledgeable and respected poster there today.
In addition, he occasionally posts a quality battle report here designed to raise tactical questions. So there you go, that's who the hell Shockwave is. =]
Mark4@battlereports.com
|
| #32 Tariq (198.168.49.221)[15187] |
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I know who he is(but I do get him confused with
{PH}Shockwave).
Notice the quotation marks?
That was partly sarcasm.
1 |
| #33 Mark4 (strangers.bragg.army.mil)[15188] |
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| Good. Cuz my reply was partly boot licking =] |
| #34 BLuRReD{Sky} (209.57.26.2)[15190] |
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that shockwave comment was so nice i think i'm gonna cry...
oh wait, nope, i had something in my eye. |
| #35 shockwave (exchange1.sensable.com)[15198] |
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Yikes, look what I started :-b. Thanks Mark for sticking up for me ("writes Mark4 a check", as JV would say :-) ). I don't want to blow the whole map imbalance out of proportion, I'm just acknowledging that some starts have pretty significant disadvantages than others. It's frequently said that e.g. the 3 and 6 o'clock starts are easiest to tank/cannon because the minerals are flush against the ledge. Just to add some strategy, another great advantage of that is that you don't HAVE to siege your tank right at the edge in order to hit the minerals patches. In fact, it's often advantageous to keep it away from the ledge so that things on low ground (such as other tanks) have a harder time getting into range to counter. At 6 TvP, a Toss player actually cannoned my natural, but he did it in a quaint way where he had his cannons backed up so that they were barely hitting my peons. I had a really rough time removing those with low ground tanks (yes, I should have just dropped them up there instead), whereas this of course would have only hit my gas or nothing at all at some of the other starts. In any case, nobody is going to say "I lost in this game because I got a bad start", but it's just common sense to say that some are more desirable than others.
|
| #36 Apparition-X (clgrtnt1-port-141.agt.net)[15205] |
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Hey AQD3, nice game. If you want, I posted a couple of games as Judge~Holden which tell the story from the terran side. I also consistently play the "heavy metal" strat in ladder play, and think I am getting a better understanding of its strengths and weaknesses.
First, Newbie did at least one thing wrong, which was not expand when he had a little bit of containment. Second, he did not find your expansion. This is exactly what speed upgraded vultures are for. In my experience, if you early expand (or semi-early) vs. terran heavy metal, you better do it to another start position (not your natural) or you will lose. And then you better hope that he doesnt find it with scouting.
Your responses were pretty much exactly right... Storm is a necessity, as is getting an expansion going. Observers help, and so do peon raids. Early goons is definitely the best opening vs. heavy metal... and get range for goons pretty much right after the core warps in. Speedy zealots will work OK to remove the tanks in trenches... but... a smart terran will wall in the tanks with depots, and stick a few mines on the other side of the depots too. And, of course, DT of your own to kill tanks, patrolling vultures, etc. really help. |
| #37 HardDrive99 (eag40481.corp.novatel.ca)[15206] |
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I played a TvP game this past lunch where I found out the hard way that micro < macro. We played Ramparts where I got the lower right and he had the upper left. While I was having fun tanking his supply and nuking peons he was quietly getting map control and building a huge force.
Now for that matchup again I'ld do something totally different... actually it would be exactly what Hannibal stated. I should have pinned him in and then worried about micro attacks.
HD |
| #38 kent2 (138.129.113.195)[15208] |
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AQD3: Great report as always. I ought to be working rather than replying. One question: about a week ago, I did a '/stats aqd3' and it gave me a rating of a bit under 1100! I was confused. Does the /stats command not work?
In general, you can't win with pure micro against macro, I agree. But good grief, why should you be able to? If you completely abandon map control, you deserve to lose. If the other player had placed a big minefield around your choke early, and then used the tanks, and then expanded to his natural early, you could have had some serious problems. |
| #39 AQD3[15210] |
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| I have two ladder accounts. dbCAS and AQD3. AQD3 is under 1100 right now and I can't play on it until blizzard restores it. dbCAS is over 1200. |
| #40 Johnny_Vegas (control.ahnet.net)[15217] |
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| What are you trying to pull AQD3?? dbCAS is MY LADDER ACCOUNT! Sheesh! I guess that's ok though if you want to pretend to have a "high" ladder rating. |
| #41 JoLLy~TeAcuP (proxy3-external.elcjn1.sdca.home.com)[15220] |
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heh johnny,
i remember you having some problems with ladder... =) |
| #42 JoLLy~TeAcuP (proxy3-external.elcjn1.sdca.home.com)[15221] |
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...
...
.
....
.
.
.
.
like getting above 1070=) |
| #43 [FLS]prozerran[15226] |
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Oh please....
Johnny can beat me often. and I'm way over 1200 back then....
*working back up there this season again. Only 1170 so far in 3 days. =) Lost a freakin TvT to tanking on low ground when I got 6 =[ .... * |
| #44 Omnipresent (catvnet-116-96.catvnet.com)[15228] |
|
Bah... Micro is fine as long as you keep good recon. Just watch for expansions and get them as they pop up, rather than repeatedly dropping one exp or one's main. Besides, why can't you do both? Macro when all is calm and micro when it makes a difference in battle, tis what I do. Just wondering why u can't do both..
Oh and I hate rivalry. Friggin bridges piss me off when I'm terran ;-<. |
| #45 [FLS]prozerran (HARNWELL7.ULLAB.UPENN.EDU)[15241] |
|
What?!??!@#^#^&%#*^*
Those bridges favor terrans so much cuz most of their units are ranged!!!
holy molly try losing a bridge when you go dual bunker with 2 tanks. You won't lose the bridge to almost infinite ammount of ground troops. Then either go mass mass marines against toss's carriers/dweb or mass SV against zerg's guardians. |
| #46 ']['amaraw (203.172.21.187)[15263] |
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This is great. While i'm pondering how to use the races properly, u guys are talking about map imbalance. Man i'm too far behind, i need to catch up.
Nice message thread, i'm learning. |
| #47 HardDrive99 (eag40481.corp.novatel.ca)[15269] |
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I love bridges when I'm terran... except when I'm trying to get tanks and goliaths to path across. Then I find that I have plenty of new words in my vocabulary. 8^)
While playing ramparts yesterday I just got fed up after a while and cranked out 4 shuttles to speed up the process. Of course that requires a lot more attention then attack/move or patrol to. But if you wanted your management to be easy you wouldn't be picking terran... Right now I'm 35 - 4 with 3 of my 4 losses coming as terran (I typically random). 2 losses on Dire and 1 on Ramparts. Still haven't figured out the best terran stategies on islands is... time to experiment more.
HD |
| #48 Omnipresent (170.182.91.159)[15282] |
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What HD said. That and who says you have to charge the guarded bridge? There's more than one way to reach a base on rivalry. 2nd, each race has their form of siege weapons like guardians, defilers, sairs, carriers, and what not to break defenses like that, so it's not like it's such a humongous deal.
Also, all you have to do to avoid offensive sieges is more your units far enough back so that the tanks have to be ON the bridge to hit you. That way they are really cluttered and suck and the only way to counter this is to have a lot of siege tanks behind. If so, either hit with air or take advantage of the tanks' sad mobility and go around through another bridge. There's no way he can have 6 or so tanks at all three bridges unless u let him and that's just dumb.
Overall bridges basically detract from all races' mobility, but terran's have the worst mobility and as such it hurts them the most and zerg the least, since zerg have the most mobility. And since each race simply has to get siege weapons (whoop got to watch me lose a terran base to defilers and various infantry on rivalry and it wasn't fun), terrans basically don't get any serious advantages from the bridges. |
| #49 Omnipresent (170.182.91.159)[15290] |
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Stupid errors. At the end it should read "and since each race just has to get siege weapon to break the bridge"
Also, 2nd paragraph first sentence a "move" should replace "more" |
| #50 shockwave (exchange1.sensable.com)[15302] |
|
Omni: All the non-Terran siege you mentioned is further up the tech tree than tanks. I realize that once Toss get carriers or dweb, it's all over the bridge sieges to a certain extent. But effective tank pushing has always been a solid early/mid game strat because those counters aren't generally available.
Yep, you can avoid a tank push. The problems occur when he e.g. sets up tanks across the bridge from your natural expansion while you're trying to mine. This is usually what gives me the most trouble. I agree with the general philosophy that you should find another bridge to cross if there are tanks guarding the current one, but that's not always possible if something valuable is currently being sieged...
|
| #51 <img "http://www.3dgraphicworks.com/jwp/hc.jpg"> (209.185.98.79)[15307] |
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Damn fine report, even though the terran lost ;)!
Keep it up.
-HC |
| #52 NewbieMcNasty (rn80360.u.resnet.pitt.edu)[15314] |
|
Oh Well........
Let me tell you how I felt about the situation. First of all, I was very familiar with the bad spot protoss had and I adjusted my strategy toward it. However, my main mistake was EXTREMELY poor recon, and overagressive dropping. If I had spent time securing an island expansion and more recon istead of pointless drops, I would have had the minerals to make a good tank push. I overestimated the situation and lost because of it. By the way ITS REMATCH TIME..... |
| #53 ~LifeIsPeachy~ (massed-us1081.massed.net)[16579] |
|
Hey... doesn't this guy's BR writing style seem kinda like Mark4's? Weird... holy crap, i just figured it out! AQD3 IS Mark4! Wow, am i smart or what?
P.S. This was not written after reading Mark4's confession
( whatever that is :p ) |
| #54 willwinforfood[63572] |
| d120-54.hcvlny.optonline.net |
| a drop on the cliff behind 3:00 with tanks and using the ship as extra range and hit the refinery. but i'm too lazy to read all the comments. someone prolly mentioned that already. |
| #55 stupid...............[100898] |
| brf-cache10.jaring.my |
Fuck!!
|
| #56 wakiki[154394] |
| cable-68-186-201-180.mtv.al.charter.com |
| Heh, last. |
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